Panel: Rails Then, Now, And Next: A Conversation With Our Community
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Panel: Rails Then, Now, And Next: A Conversation With Our Community

Evan Phoenix, Marty Haught, Eileen M. Uchitelle, Nadia Odunayo, Sarah Mei, Aaron Patterson, and Chad Fowler • July 09, 2025 • Philadelphia, PA • Panel

Overview

This panel discussion, held at RailsConf 2025, brings together influential contributors and leaders from the Rails and Ruby community to reflect on the past, present, and future of the Rails framework. The session is both retrospective and forward-looking, covering personal experiences, community evolution, technical advancements, and anticipated challenges for Rails amid shifts in the broader software landscape.

Main Discussion Points

  • Introductions and Community Roots:

    • Panelists introduce themselves, sharing diverse backgrounds and stories of how they became involved with Rails.
    • Motivations for joining the Rails ecosystem ranged from the appeal of Ruby itself, the vibrant community, career changes, and accidental encounters at early Rails events.
    • Stories highlighted RailsConf as a key driver in growing the community and deepening engagement.
  • Favorite Rails Applications:

    • Panelists mention influential or personally meaningful Rails apps such as RubyGems.org, GitHub, Shopify, StoryGraph, Basecamp, and Diaspora.
    • These examples underscore the variety and scalability of projects built with Rails.
  • Cultural and Technical Evolution:

    • Early years described as a 'Wild West' with rapid growth, experimentation, and challenge-solving.
    • Bootcamps and increased accessibility brought in new developers, broadening the Rails community's diversity and reach.
    • The community saw waves of participation, with resilience and adaptability as key to Rails' longevity.
  • The Present State of Rails:

    • Excitement centers around modern technologies like Turbo and Hotwire, which empower even small development teams to build scalable, cross-platform apps.
    • Notable case: StoryGraph achieving wide adoption with a minimal team thanks to Rails' productivity and new frontend innovations.
    • Legacy applications such as Shopify showcase Rails' adaptability, with large codebases functioning and evolving for over a decade.
  • Adapting to Modern Challenges:

    • Discussion on the implications of AI and LLMs (Large Language Models) for programming, with a view that Rails' well-documented, pattern-rich architecture positions it well for future automated code generation.
    • Panelists anticipate AI making developers more creative and ambitious, offloading boilerplate and encouraging focus on higher-level problems.
  • Community and Sustainability:

    • Calls for active participation: contributing code, improving documentation, organizing or rejuvenating meetups, and blogging to maintain community vitality.
    • Addressing burnout and succession in open source, with an emphasis on bringing new contributors into existing projects and maintaining long-term momentum.
    • Financial support for community initiatives and the infrastructure around Rails is encouraged as part of sustainability.
  • Audience Engagement:

    • Integration of audience Q&A and real-time polling tools underscores the desire for interactive and inclusive conversations.

Takeaways

  • Rails' long-term success is credited to an engaged, evolving community and a solid, adaptable technical foundation.
  • The framework is seen as suitable for both individual projects and large-scale, mature applications.
  • Contributions from newcomers and veterans alike are vital for sustaining and innovating within the Rails ecosystem.
  • The Rails community is optimistic about facing future challenges, including automation and AI, by leveraging its history of adaptability, documentation, and collaboration.

Panel: Rails Then, Now, And Next: A Conversation With Our Community
Evan Phoenix, Marty Haught, Eileen M. Uchitelle, Nadia Odunayo, Sarah Mei, Aaron Patterson, and Chad Fowler • Philadelphia, PA • Panel

Date: July 09, 2025
Published: July 23, 2025
Announced: unknown

Rails has been evolving for over two decades, shaping the modern web development landscape while fostering one of the most passionate and tight-knit communities in tech. This panel brings together influential voices from different eras of Rails to reflect on its past, discuss its present, and envision its future.

Join us for a lively, insightful conversation with seasoned contributors and community leaders as we explore:

How Rails has changed over the years—both technically and culturally
Pivotal moments in the framework’s history and lessons learned
The current state of Rails and its place in the modern web ecosystem
What’s next for Rails and how we, as a community, can shape its future
Whether you’re a long-time Rails developer or just starting your journey, this panel offers valuable perspectives and stories from those who have helped shape the framework and its community.

Some Potential Curated Questions:

Past:
- What drew you to Rails initially, and what kept you engaged?
- What were some of the most defining moments in Rails history?
- What lessons can newer developers learn from the early days of Rails?
- What is your favorite memory from RailsConf?

Present:
- What excites you most about Rails today?
- How has the community evolved over the years?
- What are the biggest challenges Rails developers face in today’s tech landscape?

Future:
- Where do you see Rails in the next 5–10 years?
- What should the Rails community focus on to ensure long-term sustainability?
- How can we make Rails an even more welcoming and innovative space?

Format & Audience Engagement:
- 60-minute panel discussion with a moderator guiding the conversation
- 10-15 minutes reserved for audience Q&A
- Interactive Slido or similar tool to collect questions in real time

This panel is designed to be both reflective and forward-looking, offering insights for developers at all levels. It will provide a rare opportunity to hear directly from those who have shaped Rails, making it a must-attend session for anyone invested in its future.

RailsConf 2025

00:00:18.080 Okay. Hello. Good morning, everybody. Yeah. Good morning. Uh, today we're
00:00:25.119 doing what? What? Good morning, Aaron. Good morning, Evan. Good morning, Okay, first off, let's
00:00:31.119 give every let's give all of our panelists a round of applause, please. Yes. Thank you.
00:00:38.079 All right. Um, we we're going to do this panel now, but I
00:00:44.719 think the first the first thing we should do is probably a round of introductions. I will start and then we
00:00:51.120 will go down the row here and you can introduce yourself. Um, because we
00:00:57.039 should do that. My name is Aaron Patterson. Hello. Good morning. Um,
00:01:02.399 Sarah, that's it. That's your intro. That's my intro. Yes. You could have at least said I don't
00:01:08.320 need an introduction. I am the man who needs no introduction.
00:01:13.760 Hi everybody. My name is Sarah May. Uh, and I have been a software developer since 1998.
00:01:20.960 Uh, Evan Phoenix. Uh, I used to help run this jam. Nadia Oda. I run story graph uh the main
00:01:28.400 goodreads alternative. Woo. Yeah. I'm Chad Fowler. I started this
00:01:33.600 conference and uh co-founded Ruby Central.
00:01:41.360 I'm Eileen. You know me online as Eileen codes. Uh I don't know when I started coding, but it was after some of them.
00:01:48.960 Um uh I work at Shopify. I'm on the Rails
00:01:54.720 core team and the Ruby core team. Marty Hot, director of open source at
00:02:00.159 Ruby Central. I used to uh help run this thing, but now I just sort of help the open source aspects at Ruby Central.
00:02:06.960 Been programming in quite a while and been a community member since what, 2005.
00:02:18.160 Great. Okay, I guess let's Oh, why are you looking at me? I have to say stuff. Yeah. All right.
00:02:25.200 Should I ask myself the question you told me I Yeah. Yeah. Let's start with the Let's start with the question I told you I
00:02:31.040 would ask you, Chad. What was the question? It was It was about the name. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Okay. Why Ruby on
00:02:40.160 Rails? Because it's a really It's a stupid name. Ruby on Rails. It doesn't make any
00:02:47.680 sense. Like the Rails thing doesn't make any sense. the Ruby on it doesn't make any sense. Then we call it Rails, but
00:02:54.160 it's really on Ruby has never made any sense. I remember like the day that that David announced the name, I was like,
00:03:00.959 "You're really going to call it that?" You know,
00:03:06.800 anyone else? I don't think people like my answer, do you? Did anyone here hear that name and think that doesn't make any sense?
00:03:13.760 Yeah. Okay. One person. All right. We have any other opinions up here? I mean, that's why we have you up here as
00:03:20.000 opinions. So, please jump in if you have opinions about the name. Anyone? No,
00:03:25.680 it's too late to change it now. You have had like 20 years to say you
00:03:31.440 didn't like the name. It's open source. You can just fork it and have a new name.
00:03:39.040 I say we call it Merb. That doesn't make any sense either.
00:03:46.319 That does not make sense either. That's true.
00:03:51.360 Is that it? No more. Okay. All right. All right. Let's move on here then. Um
00:03:59.599 Evan, I got a question for you. Hit me. Uh favorite Rails app.
00:04:04.640 Favorite favorite Rails app. Yeah. Favorite? Yeah, sure.
00:04:09.760 Like how do I judge my favorite like the code or the app itself?
00:04:14.799 All up to you. Uh, favorite.
00:04:19.919 That's the right answer. What was the I'm sorry. Story graph is your favorite. It's definitely the right answer. Yeah. Uh,
00:04:27.360 favorite Rails app. Um, yeah, probably Ruby Gems, honestly.
00:04:33.919 Like, yeah, it it it has legs for a, you
00:04:39.680 know, if you watch the Ruby gems uh.org talk yesterday, like it's been around for a long time. uh is
00:04:47.759 like stubbornly uh vital, you know, in a way that's like it's still round and kicking. So, yeah,
00:04:53.600 I would that's a great one. I would say ruby gems.org. Okay. All right. Sarah, your favorite Rails app.
00:05:01.280 All right. I'm going to give a serious answer for the first time here on this panel,
00:05:07.759 which is that I worked on an open source Rails app called Diaspora for a number of years. It is still a going concern
00:05:13.120 although I'm not involved anymore but it was my first opportunity to work on an app that like I wasn't wasn't like for
00:05:19.360 the company I was working for and it was great for me personally because it was a I was able to see like another Rails app
00:05:25.520 and contrast between the one I was working on and that one and I learned a bunch of stuff about how you know
00:05:31.840 software design is different for an open source app where you're expecting people to just drop in and be able to use it
00:05:37.120 versus an app that you're building for a company where you expect there to be a little bit of ramp up time. So it can be
00:05:42.400 a little bit more complex. So there. I like that.
00:05:49.440 All right. Nadia, can I say an app I built? Yes, absolutely.
00:06:01.120 All right, Chad. If you don't say an app, you build I mean, I didn't build anything worth
00:06:06.960 saying. So, I'll say I was going to say Twitter because it's not called that anymore and I used to love it, but I
00:06:12.319 think actually GitHub is is my favorite. All right, Eileen.
00:06:18.240 Um, well, I mean, Shopify pays me money, so
00:06:27.680 it is currently my favorite Rails app. All right, second favorite. Number two,
00:06:33.680 but if I want to say favorite Rails app I worked on because it's not um messy, I
00:06:39.360 would say uh Base Camp. Oh, interesting. Because it's a really big code base. Not
00:06:45.600 not classic, but the like three or four or whatever.
00:06:51.919 All right, Marty. Ruby gyms.org. Oh, okay. Sure. Serious answer.
00:06:57.039 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Uh let's see. What is What should I ask next? Um,
00:07:04.479 got a list of question. I got I know I got a I got a list of questions. I have to admit here. So, I'm a I didn't say this at the beginning,
00:07:10.639 but I'm a replacement MC. I was going to say I was like, people should know that you stepped in last night drinks
00:07:16.800 because Kinsey couldn't make it. So, you're doing great. Kinsey couldn't make it, so I'm filling in.
00:07:22.800 This is very last minute. I And I'm I'm going off script here
00:07:28.080 because I want to ask funny funny questions. Like there we have a lot of serious
00:07:34.319 questions, but I'm not a serious person. Let's see. Um
00:07:41.039 uh what does Rails start? What letter does Rails start with? Go
00:07:47.280 me. Yeah, sure. R. Come on. R. Thank you. All right. Uh worst worst
00:07:55.199 downgrade story. Downgrade. Yeah.
00:08:00.720 Eileen, what? I thought you I thought you were going to ask plenty questions. What? I thought you were going to ask
00:08:06.479 one. How many downgrades have you done? Zero. Yes. I only upgrade.
00:08:12.800 No downgrades. No, I don't think I ever had to downgrade. I like would refuse to. If someone was like, "Oh, this caused a bug." I'm like,
00:08:18.479 "Fix it. We're not going back."
00:08:32.320 Too many. Good answer. That's a good answer. All right. Um, let's see. I should ask I
00:08:39.200 should ask some serious questions, actually. Yeah. Um, I think this is okay. This is a this is a very good one.
00:08:45.360 We have a lot of these folks up here on stage have been in the Ruby and Rails community for a long time. So, I think this is a good one to ask. Um, how did
00:08:52.959 you get involved in the Rails community originally? I think let's start with Sarah and go down the line here.
00:09:00.959 Yeah, so I was a Java developer booiss back in the day uh in the early 2000s. And um I was uh looking for a job after
00:09:09.200 I had been out of the workforce for a year or so because of my oldest daughter being born. And I met a person who uh
00:09:16.480 had a ticket for the first Rails comp in 2006. And uh I did not know anybody. I
00:09:22.880 did not know Ruby. I literally bought a book about Ruby, the author of whom I believe is in this room. And I took it
00:09:28.959 with me on the airplane and I read it. Uh and I showed up at the first Rails comp in 2006.
00:09:36.000 And there I was. And uh it was the most surreal experience ever. But it was even
00:09:41.440 then even the very first Rails comp it was a great experience. It was uh the talks were great even though I got maybe
00:09:48.800 2% of each talk you know the rest of it going over my head. But uh but I've basically been a Rails developer since
00:10:03.440 It's a long answer so I'll like maybe I'll give the zip short version of it.
00:10:10.000 You're going to compress the complex. Compress compress the complexity down. Exactly. Right. Perfect. Uh I had
00:10:16.240 already been doing a lot of Ruby and uh Rails Comp was in Portland and uh I was
00:10:23.440 living in Seattle at the time and my the startup where I was working in a guy's
00:10:28.640 basement was collapsing rapidly and I was like, you know what, like maybe
00:10:34.079 maybe I should go to this conference. Maybe that would be that would be fun. And so we took the train I don't
00:10:40.240 remember if you were did you go on that trip? Okay. We took the train from Seattle down to Portland to go to that
00:10:46.720 first Rails comp. And I had I'm trying to remember I think that that
00:10:51.920 was a that was I had already started a project called Rabinius. And on before I
00:10:57.760 was going down there, uh, Engineard, who used to be a big wig in the in the community, asked me if I wanted to use
00:11:05.040 their talk, their their community talk spot to talk about Rabbitius. And I was like, "Sure. I don't think you know what
00:11:11.279 you're getting yourself into, but okay." Um, and so I went down there and and and
00:11:16.959 that was that was my first I that was the first Rails comp and I was sort of accidentally talking at it and yeah, I
00:11:24.160 guess that's the start. film for me. So, I studied philosophy,
00:11:30.720 politics, and economics at university and I was going into banking. Decided I didn't want to do that after my internship. And I saw a tweet for a
00:11:39.920 competition to win a place on a coding boot camp. And I thought, ooh, being technical is probably smart. Cuz I tried
00:11:47.040 to do projects at university and I was always hampered by my lack of technical ability. And so I I entered this
00:11:54.640 competition and I won a free place on a coding boot camp, Makers Academy in London. And even then I was was even
00:12:01.760 though it was a free place, I still wasn't sure I wanted to go or if it would make sense. But I decided it was a
00:12:08.000 smart decision knowing that I was entrepreneurial and um they were at the
00:12:13.760 time they were teaching Rails. So I didn't choose it. I just ended up learning it. And I feel so lucky and uh
00:12:20.639 like grateful that that's what they were teaching. Uh and then in terms of getting involved in the conferences,
00:12:25.680 there's a fun story. I was at I got a job at Pivotal Labs at the time and I
00:12:32.000 was thinking about getting into speaking tech conferences so that I could go to
00:12:37.600 the conferences for free. And um uh Pivotal had a great policy that was like
00:12:43.040 you it was like you get money to go to conferences if after you'd been at the company for you know a couple years but
00:12:50.160 if you were accepted to speak at this specific list of conferences which was very extensive that you could go as soon
00:12:56.959 at. So I tried to pivot into that and one day uh my boss um I was at work just
00:13:03.760 on the computer after work and he said to me um oh you have this cool game
00:13:09.200 theory talk cuz it was a game theory talk on distributed systems and he said I'm about to go for a meal with my
00:13:16.079 friend you should speak to her she'll tell you about speaking at conferences so I went and spoke to this woman and I
00:13:22.240 was explaining that oh I told her about my game theory talk and she said, "Sounds fantastic. You should submit it
00:13:29.040 to Rails Comp." And I just thought, "Ah, this this lady doesn't know what she's talking about. She she didn't listen to
00:13:35.760 me." And um but she's just trying to be encouraging. So then after later that
00:13:42.079 evening, I said I wanted to email the woman and say thank you. And I asked uh
00:13:47.200 JB for um his email and it was like Sarah May. in and I was like this this
00:13:53.839 name sounds familiar from like blog posts and things I'd read and I was like okay she does know what she's talking about and that was in 2015 and I
00:14:02.000 submitted to give my game theory talk at uh Railscon in Atlanta and that was my first tech conference so 2015 in Atlanta
00:14:09.519 was my first Ruby central anything and so it's really I don't know really cool to be here 10 years later doing this
00:14:15.600 panel having built like a Rails app that's like um used by millions of people around the world so awesome
00:14:26.160 More developers need to know about game theory. I didn't know you did that talk cuz I wasn't there. I'm going to go watch it. Assuming it's online, right?
00:14:32.399 It is online still. Yeah. Okay, good. You should all go watch this talk on game theory. Seriously. Um I What was the qu Oh. Uh so I was
00:14:41.760 doing Ruby um on the weekends like in I had this thing where I would learn a new
00:14:46.959 language every weekend and I learned Ruby in the year 2000. and I just got
00:14:52.000 stuck on it. Uh, in fact, I had decided I was going to be a small talk person. I was going to give up the weekly thing, but I got stuck on Ruby. Um, and that
00:15:00.000 led to um co-founding Ruby Central, starting Ruby Conf with David Allen
00:15:06.720 Black um at the time and Dave Thomas, Rich Kilmer joined us. We three plus Jim
00:15:13.760 Mrick and Paul Brandon created Ruby gems together at Ruby Conf 2003 in a late
00:15:18.800 night hackathon. And this will get to the Rails thing. Uh my role in the Ruby
00:15:24.240 gems um like maintenance at the time was a little bit of code and a lot of like the annoying person that just kept
00:15:30.639 pushing people to use it. Uh I kept annoying the Ruby core team like let's put this in Ruby itself and make it
00:15:36.720 official. And uh around that time this uh very enthusiastic young man created
00:15:44.240 something called Insticky which was a very well-marketed wiki. Uh, and the
00:15:49.759 whole thing was like steps one, two, three, you know, first do this, second do this. There is no step three. This
00:15:55.680 was David Heinmire Hansen. Uh, I just saw like the way he he marketed was so
00:16:01.839 uh inspiring to me as a cubicle dwelling nerd in Kentucky that I started talking
00:16:06.959 to him about how we could get people to use Ruby Gems. Um, and he is actually the person he's like, "Rubygeems needs a
00:16:13.360 domain and a website." So, I registered rubygeems.org because he told me I should. uh and he helped push it. So
00:16:20.720 when Rails came out uh I think the only way to install it was Ruby gems and it
00:16:25.759 might be the first like serious project that was released where it was the only way to install it was through Ruby gems.
00:16:31.920 So in a sense I got through got into the Rails community that way. Uh I actually thought that Rails was a silly thing
00:16:38.560 like not just the goofy name like I said earlier but I also thought we don't need another MBC framework. There's so many MVC frameworks in the world. Nobody even
00:16:46.240 uses Ruby. we've already got like five really nice MVC frameworks. Let's do something like Iowa or one of these
00:16:52.320 continuations based things, you know, all this cool fancy stuff that was happening at the time. But no, of course
00:16:57.440 it took off. Uh and then the last like final nail in the coffin for me, which
00:17:03.600 means I died and went to Rails. I don't know. Uh was weird metaphor. Sorry, I'm feeling kind of morbid. um was Dave
00:17:12.480 Thomas asked me uh if I would take over for the authors of Rails recipes because
00:17:18.400 people had started writing the book and the story is everyone everyone wants to have written a book and no one wants to
00:17:24.079 write a book because it really sucks. So I don't know why I said yes. I wasn't even a Rails developer. That turned me
00:17:30.000 into a Rails developer and here I am. All right. Sorry I talked so long.
00:17:36.400 Well, I mean, this is one of those questions
00:17:41.919 where like if we've all been doing this for 15 years, the story is long.
00:17:49.360 Uh, so I I was working at a web development agency doing like WordPress stuff and whatever. I'm not um I'm not
00:17:58.480 educated in computer science. Uh I was a photography major and just sort of like stumbled into coding because it pays
00:18:05.520 better than being a photographer. Um
00:18:10.880 and uh my first I decided I want to start speaking at conferences and I don't really know what possessed me to
00:18:16.880 do that because I had an intense fear of public speaking um that I clearly got over. Uh and I I gave a talk on active
00:18:24.480 record and it was kind of like oh if active record isn't doing what you want like that's on you. you need to know
00:18:30.960 what's happening under the hood. And after the talk, Aaron raises his hand
00:18:37.120 and he was like, "That's a bug. Why don't they fix it?"
00:18:43.120 They the the other those people. And I said, "I don't know, Aaron. Why don't they?" And that's how I ended up
00:18:50.240 contributing to Rails because he said, "Let's pair on it and we'll we'll fix it together." And so the next week we get
00:18:55.840 on whatever I don't maybe we used Google Meet. I don't remember what we used for
00:19:01.679 whatever. We would just do audio and like teammate and we would uh we started pairing and
00:19:08.799 uh then Aaron passed all of the problems that he would find in Rails off on to me so that he didn't have to fix them.
00:19:18.320 And now I need to find someone to pass my problems off onto.
00:19:28.240 Yeah. So my story I would say Ruby and Ruby on Rails were were kind of connected directly. So I was earlier in
00:19:37.280 my career but I had been around I I had gone to like one tech conference maybe in 2001 and it was pretty terrible and
00:19:45.440 wasn't really very keen on that but I had joined a startup by invitation. It
00:19:51.200 was a four-person team and the conditions were I had to read a bunch of books. One of them was test-driven
00:19:58.320 development, one was refactoring, one was Java best practices because it was a Java uh stack and the other one was
00:20:05.200 enterprise patterns by by Martin Fowler. And so uh the other there's a fifth book
00:20:11.360 that wasn't required but that was pragmatic programmer. And so sort of reading these books, these were all new
00:20:17.679 to me. Extreme programming was new to me. And so that sort of opened my eyes to a different way of working. And that
00:20:23.840 led into going to a conference called No Fluff, Just Stuff after I moved to Denver in 2005 where I met uh Dave
00:20:32.000 Thomas uh the author of Pragmatic Programmer and also he was speaking
00:20:37.039 about Ruby and this new thing called Ruby on Rails. So once I saw that it was it was uh life-changing because I saw
00:20:44.480 programming and building software differently than I had previously and the productivity and the ability to
00:20:52.640 actually create very quickly what I wanted in Ruby compared to Java was uh
00:20:59.200 was remarkable. And so I never looked back. I started the Boulder Ruby uh
00:21:04.480 meetup in 2006, January 2006. you know, Chad was uh lived in Longmont, Colorado,
00:21:10.559 where I lived at the time, and and it was and it just took off. So, I I was all in and uh never looked back since.
00:21:28.640 Thank you for that. Thanks for that. Uh let's see. Let's move. Next question here. This this
00:21:36.080 question is for you, Marty, but I mean I I feel everybody here should have an
00:21:41.919 opinion probably. Um Marty, how do you think the community has evolved over the
00:21:47.600 years? All right, great question, Erin. Um okay so
00:21:53.760 in the beginning from what I saw there was uh a lot of excitement and uh sort
00:22:00.480 of I I would say the once I got plugged in so I can't speak to the years that
00:22:05.840 that that uh Chad was a present because I only got involved in 2006 but there
00:22:10.960 was very much a wild west sort of pioneering vibe early on I would say and
00:22:18.240 you know like we had a bunch of problems to solve that hadn't been solved olved yet because it was a sort of new space
00:22:23.840 and that was a very very interesting time to be in. Also, the rise of
00:22:29.120 popularity was bonkers. Uh so like I I didn't know like in 2006 it was already
00:22:35.200 kind of taking off but like it kept going up and up to where like I look back and like what a wild time like that
00:22:43.039 2006 to 2009 2010 time frame was. So that was sort of
00:22:48.880 one phase. there's maybe a little um excess perhaps uh in the community at
00:22:55.520 times. The party culture was very very strong there for a number of years and
00:23:01.200 then there was this phase where you know people started to go elsewhere
00:23:07.679 2010 I think node became a thing you know you had closure and scala and there's just so many uh interesting
00:23:14.480 languages that people started say hey ooh this thing now and so there was also sort of this talk of like oh Ruby is
00:23:21.520 dead rails is dead or whatever but it didn't actually die and So I think like when like when Evan and I joined the
00:23:28.480 board that we know it was like okay is this done? No it's not done. It actually kept going and going and that was very
00:23:35.039 surprising. I think we asked ourselves like is this it? Is this like the last year and it's going to kind of like just
00:23:40.400 crash or but it really didn't. So I think that was that was a interesting phase to be around for and then it just
00:23:48.080 kept going like surprisingly kept going. So longevity was just surprising to me.
00:23:53.440 So one thing I really want to highlight is uh it was a huge boost to our community
00:24:00.000 and the number of people using Rails when boot camps started to be a thing because a lot of the early boot camps
00:24:05.679 like dev boot camp uh which I was involved in and a few others they taught Rails to new programmers people who
00:24:12.000 didn't have a computer science background necessarily and that brought in a whole new generation of folks into
00:24:17.200 the Rails community that I think was really really crucial and this would be like maybe 2009 9 2010 maybe in the
00:24:25.279 following few years after that. So I think that was really crucial for us as a community.
00:24:33.039 Anyone else? I'm actually curious how many people in this room went to a coding boot camp.
00:24:40.080 Wow, that's great. Thank you for being here.
00:24:48.480 Um and okay, next question. All right,
00:24:53.600 we're done with that. Let's see. Nadia, this is for you.
00:25:01.919 Yes. I'm scared. No, don't be. It's a good qu It's a good
00:25:08.320 question. Is it your question or No, it's my It's not my question. No. Okay,
00:25:14.880 I'm fine then. Uh, what excites you most about Rails today? Oh, this is okay. I could do this
00:25:20.799 question. Okay, honestly, it's all the turbo hotwire stuff because I So, I'm a
00:25:28.720 one person dev team. So, story graph, we have like 4.2 million registered users
00:25:35.200 around the world. Um, hundreds over 300,000 people log in every day. Um, the
00:25:42.400 whole team is three of us. So, I'm the only web and app developer. There's Rob
00:25:48.559 who does um machine learning AI stuff and runs our servers and infrastructure.
00:25:54.000 And then there's Abby who's she's non-technical although she's starting to get a bit technical now but she does
00:25:59.039 mainly support. Um she's kind of like she she does all sorts as you know in a
00:26:04.159 startup the you know the first hire sort of thing. um but she's not technical and
00:26:09.520 so I also have to do a lot of technical support and because of in the first few
00:26:15.279 years of story graph we had a PWA and we were like it's it's just as good
00:26:20.640 as an app but psychologically if it's wasn't if it didn't come from the app store or the play store people just see
00:26:26.000 it as a website bookmark and then I remember when Turbo first uh came out
00:26:31.679 and actually Rob who doesn't do any web development at all he saw like the first one of the first turbo native beaters
00:26:39.039 and he overnight while I was sleeping he he I'm I live in London in the UK he's in California um he had set up the demo
00:26:47.520 app and so this was big for him cuz he was like if I don't do this stuff and I can set up the demo mobile app then you
00:26:55.360 can definitely sort this out and so you can you can hopefully do this and more
00:27:00.559 and so I we we we were feeling the pain of not having a mobile app especially because there were other competitors who
00:27:06.559 were coming out with native apps. And yeah, I spent 6 weeks and I set up uh
00:27:12.080 iOS and an Android app with inapp payments, which was like the hardest part because it was almost like people
00:27:17.520 hadn't done this before. And I didn't know Joe at the time, Joe Masotti, but I was I just started, it got to the point
00:27:23.279 where I was really stuck and I just started DMing him. Um, and he was awesome. but eventually managed to get
00:27:29.039 it all done, get the apps released on the App Store and Play Store. And we've been like number one in the App Store a
00:27:35.200 couple of times, like ahead of Goodreads. And it's I'm managing a web
00:27:40.240 app and two mobile apps, so three repos. And it it just wouldn't have been
00:27:45.679 possible without all the Turbo Hotwire stuff. And I'm incrementing I'm incrementally making the app feel more
00:27:52.240 and more native. So, one of the most recent things I did was add in a native tab bar. Um, and there's there's other
00:27:58.399 things. So, that's the thing that excites me and I I'm looking forward to see like how the development um
00:28:04.559 progresses with that because it's enabling me to just be this one person dev team like you that's used with an
00:28:10.640 app that's used worldwide. So, it's awesome. Thanks.
00:28:19.360 Thank you. I think that's I think it's incredible and inspiring you're able to put together like this a website or an
00:28:25.600 app of this scale with such a small dev team using Rails. So I think that's great. Please give another round of
00:28:31.600 applause for Nadia please. So it's really really inspiring.
00:28:38.000 Um anyone else have any excitement about Rails today? Eileen, you excited? Let's
00:28:44.159 get pumped. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get pumped.
00:28:49.279 I uh I mean I it's exciting like how much
00:28:56.880 we've built over the years and that's uh and still going. You know Shopify
00:29:02.640 I lose track of how old it is. But think about like Shopify is one of the oldest
00:29:07.919 Rails apps on the planet. Like Toby got the zip drive of Rails from DHH. Like it
00:29:13.760 wasn't even available to the public yet. And the first version of Shopify was built off Rails 0.1 or something. Uh
00:29:23.120 which is part of the reason that it's it has uh demons
00:29:30.799 in the codebase, but but it's also really exciting because you get to look at Toby's first commit and how it's
00:29:37.039 changed over all those years. And I don't know,
00:29:42.320 you know, when you get to work like I I I've worked on GitHub and I've worked on Base Camp and I worked on Base Camp
00:29:47.679 Classic and so I literally worked on all of the first big Rails apps that are still around and to see how they've
00:29:54.559 grown over the years and how they're changing and how Rails has changed along with it and the way they changed together now that uh a bunch of us run
00:30:01.679 off Rails main is really beautiful. Like I don't I don't know any other community
00:30:06.720 where there's huge companies that are like, "Hey, we're running off Maine so that we can make Laravel better or I'm
00:30:14.159 not and that's not I'm not saying that it's bad about those communities. It's just I don't know anyone else who's doing that." And I I think that that's
00:30:20.159 really exciting and we I hope I want more of you who have apps running off
00:30:25.840 Rails main at least in a CI build so that you can contribute and you can change Rails the way you want to along
00:30:31.440 the way. Okay. And I want I want more of that more new contributors. You know, I told you I didn't want to
00:30:37.600 answer this question, but I do now. Is that okay? Yeah, of course. Of course. Yes, please. Uh, I have a probably a weird answer
00:30:44.399 because I came here thinking I I actually came to this conference feeling sad uh as I was traveling because
00:30:52.000 partially because it's the end of an era and you know, like this is the last time I'll I'll be on the stage at RailsCom,
00:30:57.360 you know, because won't exist anymore. But also I think it's the end of an era
00:31:03.760 of people like us who are like obsessing over the details of the inner quality of
00:31:10.000 code. Like at some of the early Ruby comps in Rails comp Europe I remember like Marcel Molina did a talk called um
00:31:18.240 uh beauty and code or something like that. Really great talk. It was really inspiring about just what makes code beautiful and comparing it to art. I
00:31:25.279 think that's something that we can do as hobbyists in the future, but there
00:31:31.039 aren't going to be big conferences full of people doing like thinking about this anymore. So, this is the sad part. Now,
00:31:36.640 why am I excited about Rails? Now, uh I was partially inspired by Arena's talk
00:31:42.320 yesterday like this optimistic possibility that we've just we're going
00:31:47.600 through the trough of disillusionment and it's going to pick back up. That's one. Um, oh, and by the way, just to c
00:31:53.760 like to explain, the reason I think there won't be conferences is full of people talking about the internals like this is because LLMs and various other
00:32:00.960 models are going to be writing all their code and you know, they already do. Uh
00:32:06.000 but part of what I was inspired by is I am realizing that if we don't care about
00:32:13.360 being shiny and new anymore then something really solid proven very well
00:32:18.399 documented in so many ways including through these conferences blog posts you know because like all this stuff is
00:32:24.720 transcribed and in models somewhere actually makes for a great basis for AI
00:32:32.320 generated code because there are patterns like rails itself is a set of patterns that make good code right and I
00:32:38.799 think that's the future is it's all about architectures and less about the details of code so I think rails is
00:32:45.760 actually a great target for this and stuff like what Eileen was talking about Shopify matters a lot in the future
00:32:52.960 because you need something solid and fast and proven to perform and almost nothing is proven to perform as well as
00:32:58.240 Shopify uh so I you know I feel like some sense of optimism now so much so
00:33:04.159 that I wrote my first Rails app in 10 years um last night during DHH's session. And when I say I wrote it, I
00:33:10.799 mean Claude and I wrote it. Uh and it worked by the end. Um it's cool. It's like a thing where two two LLMs debate
00:33:17.360 each other in Rails and then give you the the output of the debate. Uh I might deploy it even.
00:33:22.880 Who won the debate? Well, um, so the thing that I the first question I asked it is, does Ruby on Rails have a bright
00:33:30.320 future in the software development like ecosystem or whatever. Uh, and it said no, not really.
00:33:37.279 No, it was actually a very reasoned thing that also contributed to this this feeling that uh, basically they they
00:33:44.480 echoed what what Marty was saying. They being the LLMs, you know, we have this like resilient community and it's very
00:33:51.760 true. all of these massive apps and small apps and humans like us that have built these things and are maintaining
00:33:57.120 it, it's not going to go away. It's not going to die. So, um, you know, that sort of reset my understanding of Ruby
00:34:21.200 excited? I mean, I I I was thinking about what Eileen said and I, you know,
00:34:27.040 open- source projects have they have they go in waves, right? It's
00:34:32.399 sort of like Arita was talking about this yesterday as well, but like there's a lot of smaller waves usually in an open source project, right? You have the
00:34:38.560 the first few people, all the excitement like someone is like pouring their their
00:34:43.679 their tears and their their joy into a thing and that has a natural end time.
00:34:50.320 either they run out of energy, they the the meal is over, whatever they're doing that, you know, causes them to be like I
00:34:56.159 got to go do other things, right? And I will say that like what you try to get in an open source project is you try to
00:35:03.280 have enough people so that those those like you know uh waves overlap, right?
00:35:10.240 So that if you zoom way out, you see them at the at the you know like they never really get down very low. they
00:35:17.119 kind of just go like this at the top because you've got all these waves overlapping. And I think that that's really what's been amazing about Rails
00:35:22.480 is because so many other project so many I mean I've seen a zillion open source projects and they will last a while and
00:35:29.280 then you know people get busy they get disillusioned they find another thing
00:35:34.480 two or three people find another thing that they go to and then all of a sudden those that that sort of graph starts to
00:35:40.880 it starts to fall fall and it hits some minimum point and everyone's like oh this project's dead I guess I just move
00:35:46.800 on like I'm not going to get involved with it right so you have to keep keep up and it's been sort of amazing to see
00:35:52.720 Rails keep that graph keep that image going for as long as it has so that
00:35:58.320 people can be like oh yeah like I mean obvious for the old heads in here the Rails 2 to three upgrade cycle was awful
00:36:05.520 but the but every upgrade cycle from then on Thanks buddy yeah
00:36:11.040 you you triggered me yesterday so that's for me today um so every cycle from there on has gotten better right and
00:36:17.920 it's gotten better because people are like there's all these people still here. There's all these old Rails apps that we want people to upgrade, right?
00:36:24.560 And as long and that upgrading also keeps that going because now there's people like, oh, I need to upgrade this
00:36:29.680 app and oh, I upgraded this app and oh, now I can use this other gem now cuz it had a requirement and oh, this is fun
00:36:35.040 and oh, maybe I'll contribute to it, right? And so like that momentum also keeps going. I think that is great. I
00:36:41.440 mean because again you can probably we could get out we could make a list of like 10 open source projects that have
00:36:46.960 that sort of continuum and they would look they would be like a very prestigious list like you'd have you'd
00:36:52.480 have Linux you'd have WordPress you'd have ra like rails on there in my opinion like it'd be it's a fairly small
00:36:57.839 list to have that kind of like longevity and momentum and so
00:37:03.680 I just want to say they're not old Rails apps they're mature okay sorry yes seasoned seasoned vets
00:37:10.160 seasoned Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not old. Yeah. I have one thing to add there. I think that uh which sort of is similar
00:37:16.640 to what you're saying, Evan, which is that like if one of the things that excites me about Rails right now is that it's good for a single person dev team.
00:37:23.760 It's good for Cisco Moroi with a hundreds and hundreds of people working on their Rails app. Like there is a way
00:37:29.200 that Rails can work for a project no matter how many people are working on it, no matter how much traffic it's
00:37:35.040 getting. uh and that to me is the mark of a mature but also like very
00:37:41.680 practically oriented framework. And so I think the stewardship of Rails and I have never really directly been involved
00:37:47.839 in the stewardship of the project itself, but I think the stewardship of Rails has been very skillful in a way
00:37:53.280 that it maybe is hard to see as it was happening, but maybe looking back it's easier to see where now we've got a
00:37:58.480 framework that really works for a lot of different types of projects.
00:38:03.680 And I also have one thing to say about AI and LLMs,
00:38:09.040 uh, which is that I am I'm very optimistic, maybe in a different way than Chad is, which is that I think that it's a tool that's going to help us be
00:38:15.680 more ambitious. You know, Rails was a tool that allowed us to stop thinking
00:38:20.800 about a certain class of problems like how do we organize our database? How do we organize our code? What code goes in
00:38:26.240 a model file? What code goes in a controller file? And that allowed us to be more ambitious because it allowed us
00:38:31.680 to put our our thought process into stuff that was higher level. And I think that is what AI coding assistants in
00:38:39.359 particular are going to do for us. Again, they're going to take away a certain class of problems, but they're going to open us up for more creativity
00:38:46.400 at a higher level of problem. And so I don't think I do not feel threatened and I don't think anyone in this room should
00:38:51.760 feel threatened by AI as a potential way of like losing your job or or something
00:38:57.520 like that. I think that that what it means to be a developer is going to shift and I think we can all shift with
00:39:03.359 it. For what it's worth, I I would have said exactly that later. Um, and I know I was
00:39:10.160 I was So, you don't disagree. I was thinking about like when David was talking last night about all these questions you shouldn't have to answer.
00:39:16.960 It occurs to me that that's where we are. It's just this new thing. It's like, okay, don't do that anymore. You
00:39:22.000 don't have to think about that anymore. So, I'm with you. I I remember Glenn Vanderberg uh when he switched from Java
00:39:27.119 to to Ruby. He was an author and speaker some of you may know. He sent me a message and he's like, "I'm really
00:39:33.280 exhausted after a day of doing Ruby." And I was like, "Why?" Or Rails actually specifically. And he said, "Well,
00:39:38.320 normally with Java, I would like come up with an idea and then I'd spend all day typing." And now it's hard because all
00:39:44.640 I'm doing is the creative work. And now we're we're at such a point where that's just insane, you know? And so like one
00:39:51.119 thing that I think the reason I mentioned like the conferences of people and the communities that are really of
00:39:56.480 course open source is different you like you have to work on this stuff but when you're building apps like there's this craftsmanship that I think can kind of
00:40:02.480 go away at the level where it has been it needs to raise though and we also
00:40:08.240 because we are in these weeds all of us uh we we must be because we're here in this conference we are at risk of being
00:40:16.079 the Java programmers that didn't understand that they didn't have to answer all these questions back in 2004
00:40:22.720 and resisting it. So, I I'm with you. Like, let's not feel threatened, but if
00:40:27.760 you don't think you you're threatened and you're also not changing your behavior and your understanding, you should feel threatened. Actually, you're
00:40:34.240 really at risk. All right. Yeah. All right.
00:40:41.440 Got we got any more AI hot takes up here? Nothing. No. Wow. Okay.
00:40:55.280 um okay. What what should the Rails community focus on to ensure long-term
00:41:02.720 sustainability? I think this is a good question. More forward looking. Um
00:41:08.000 what who's answering? I don't know who who Evan is asking who's answering this. And on the document it says everybody. So you're
00:41:15.520 you buddy starting with Evan. alphabetical order. I can I can start if you Oh, okay. Eileen, please start.
00:41:21.440 Bailed out. Uh, you should contribute to the framework
00:41:26.960 or to your communities like be an active member, not a passive member of the
00:41:32.000 community. Like if you miss a conference, make a conference. If you want a meetup, make a meetup. Uh, don't
00:41:39.119 sit back and be like, "Oh, who's going to do that for me? You want a feature in Rails? Write it." I mean, we might not merge it, but
00:41:46.000 but it's certainly not going to get done if you ask us to do it because we have plenty of our own stuff that we're working on. So, uh the the best thing I
00:41:53.839 ever did in my career was contribute to Rails. Um I was able to
00:41:59.599 little music over there. Um I think we're supposed to stop talking soon. Uh
00:42:05.359 where was I? Um that was uh the best thing you did. Well, yeah. best thing I did was contribute to Rails and because I wanted
00:42:11.599 I wanted to see multiple databases in Rails. David wasn't going to build it. If I wanted it, I had to build it. And
00:42:16.720 so I did that and now you all have multiple databases. And
00:42:24.720 so find a bug, bad documentation, fix it, make a meetup, make a conference,
00:42:29.920 write a blog post. Everybody stop blogging. I don't I did too. I don't know why, but I would like to see more
00:42:35.839 blogs come back. Um and that's what I think if you want if you want community you have to be an active member of the
00:42:42.480 community. Yeah. I had another another quick one on that which is the there has been times when as
00:42:50.800 Railscom was very it is a professional conference and as it became a very professional conference there was always
00:42:57.760 the danger that people attending Railscom would see the professionalism
00:43:02.880 as a mark that there is a large organization that gets to make all these decisions and there is therefore like
00:43:09.839 okay okay Eileen I need you to go make multiple databases It was like a top- down, you know, like command control
00:43:16.480 structure, right? Because it looked very slick and professional. And it looked very slick and professional only because
00:43:21.520 people gave a Like that was that was all facade, right? The only reason that people were there is because they were like, I kind of want to be here and
00:43:28.480 can I help out? And then enough people said, "Hey, let's have a conference if we're all going to be here anyway." Right? And I I guess I I there's a times
00:43:37.200 when the conference is like I got involved with Ruby Central way back in the day because uh specifically Ruby
00:43:44.160 comp was so scrappy that it was like no one was manning the table for check-in and I was like god damn it I got to sit
00:43:50.720 at the we're checking people in here today you know like and but that breeds
00:43:56.640 a certain kind of people helping out myself and but you could because you can see the holes right I I always worry
00:44:02.720 that like the professional ISM makes it so people can't see where they can help out. But the answer is literally
00:44:08.319 everywhere. Like, you know, like help out with the conference, make a conference, help out, you know, like no
00:44:13.920 one's telling anyone really what to what to do, what to add to Rails for the most part. People are just like, I'm excited
00:44:19.680 about this. I'm going to go work on that. So, I I keep that in mind, I guess, is what I'm saying.
00:44:25.440 So, I've got um some thoughts here, too. So since I've stepped into this role as
00:44:30.560 director of open source, I think about what is the next 10, 20 years look like. We have a bunch of gyms that aren't
00:44:37.040 maintained. There are still some of them are still used and who takes over that. There's a burnout is real. You know, we
00:44:44.079 talked about the waves earlier with open source and I think that's a thing. So, like I'm like, how do I find folks who
00:44:50.000 want to step into some of these projects and bring some some new blood, some some new energy to keep them going because
00:44:56.480 they are critical and at some point the folks that are doing it now are going to get tired and they're going to move on
00:45:02.480 and then who takes over that? That's going to happen. It has happened and so
00:45:07.520 there's like what do we do about that? Are we intentional? But I think if anything to take away from this is like
00:45:13.520 if there's a one of these libraries that interests you, you know, get involved. Matter of fact, in uh just a few
00:45:20.000 minutes, there's going to be some uh tables over there filled with folks that are that are showing up for their open
00:45:25.040 source projects that would probably love to see you drop by and say hi and maybe
00:45:30.079 show your interest. So, all right. I have one last thing. Okay. Yeah, go for it.
00:45:36.000 Okay. It's it's really fast. Okay. Who who in here eats lunch? Show up hands if
00:45:42.480 you eat lunch. I know that Justin Stles isn't here. Otherwise, he'd have his hand down famously. He doesn't eat
00:45:48.480 lunch, but most of us eat lunch, right? So, yesterday you all went out to lunch, right? You all went and found a place.
00:45:54.000 Maybe you spent between 10 and 15, maybe $20 for a nice lunch. Chad and I had
00:45:59.119 some nice Japanese food. It was great. Uh today, the conference is graciously providing you with lunch, which is
00:46:05.040 great. It's that, you know, you don't have to go anywhere. You're here. You could, you don't have to go outside and sweat, right? So, let's let's everybody
00:46:11.520 Hey, can we get the silent auction uh thing up on the screen up here, right? So, I want everybody, you don't have to
00:46:17.119 pay for lunch today, right? That was great. That was really nice. You had to pay for lunch yesterday. So, everybody, let's get out your phones and I want you
00:46:23.040 to donate your lunch budget today. You because a lot of you are on a company budget.
00:46:28.480 You're a lot of you are here on a a company budget and your company's providing you with a perdem, right? So,
00:46:34.640 what I'm allowing you, you can put it down. Evan Phoenix said it was cool. I'm going to I want you to
00:46:43.599 that that specifically was not cool though. I I want you to go donate your lunch
00:46:49.200 budget right now to this and you can say, "Hey, Evan Phoenix said this is the conference lunch budget." Like you you
00:46:54.240 give my email address. You can they can write me and I will give you an exception note that this was your lunch. You spent your perdm today. But if you
00:47:00.880 don't have a company per DM, you still don't have to buy lunch anyway. So, please go click on this link, donate
00:47:06.560 your lunch budget like like they were saying earlier, you know, $13 from
00:47:11.839 everybody. We'd have be over this over this thing. We could do it right now. We could literally just see there we go.
00:47:17.839 We could do it. We could just We could have it be over right now. I can wait.
00:47:24.000 I literally got time. All right. Pledge drive. Yes.
00:47:29.040 Thank you. Thank you, Evan. I guess maybe hopefully maybe Ruby Ruby Central can provide receipts so you can
00:47:36.079 actually no I'm doing receipts. You just got to ask for a receipt.
00:47:45.760 Yeah. Have Claude have Claude generate a receipt. I'm making I'm making receipts. You don't worry about that. You need a
00:47:50.960 receipt. I got receipts. All right. Okay. I think I think we're over time here, so I'm going to do one
00:47:56.079 quick one last final question and then we'll end this all up. Um, favorite ice
00:48:01.200 cream flavor, Sarah. Go chocolate. Going for a classic. Nice.
00:48:06.640 I had this lemon mering pie gelato recently. Oh man, it was great. Had
00:48:11.839 crust in it and lemon curd. It was super pistachio.
00:48:16.960 Oh, wasabi. What?
00:48:22.640 I don't know. I like a lot of different flavors. It depends on the mood.
00:48:28.800 Like If you if you if someone gave you ice cream right now. Uh oh. So there's like there's a place
00:48:34.559 that's that's it's here. We saw it last night. They have a honeycomb ice cream that's really good and I've been like
00:48:40.240 eating that a lot. Vans I don't know. Search ice cream. It starts with a it's like van something.
00:48:47.359 That one. Yeah. Yeah. I got that in New York and I was like this is great ice cream. And then I saw them here and I was like I guess maybe it's from Philly.
00:48:54.800 Um, I'm gonna say peach gelato that I make myself with Colorado peaches.
00:49:01.920 All right, one last round of applause for everybody here. Thank you.
00:49:06.960 A round of applause for our uh impromptu uh moderator, Aaron. Yes. Woo. Go Aaron. Thank you.
00:49:14.000 All right. I have a good day everybody. I'll see you around.
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